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programmer's definition of "breaking change" for semver purposes: "whatever is breaking my personal use case"
@whitequark *thinks*
Is there a more apt definition?
@mcc you could write down an interface specification before you write the program, and then check adherence to this interface specification
most programmers don't bother doing that! but even those who do, don't get very far, because without machine-checkable interface specifications it's trivially easy to ship a semver-breaking change without noticing. this isn't a great thing!
@mcc also without strong encapsulation, good luck enforcing that your clients actually stick to the interface specification you wrote
@whitequark @mcc See systemd wantonly copy-pasting bits of glibc headers into their tree "because compile times"...
"If it's in /usr/include it's fair game" is apparently the attitude of at least one of the maintainers...
@becomethewaifu @mcc that's cursed. why not use precompiled headers?
@whitequark @becomethewaifu @mcc Because there's not actually a performance issue they're trying to solve. It's just ideological about not respecting interface contract boundaries. They did the header flattening for *their own* internal headers, and thereby they should also be allowed to do it for system header ones.
Because see, they're called "system" headers and that means they belong to systemd. 
Obviously.
@dalias @whitequark @becomethewaifu To me if systemd were a good and useful system for whatever it is it does, then it would be nice if I could build systemd for platforms other than linux. by the way, does hardcoding glibc headers imply that building systemd with clang is not possible?
@mcc @whitequark @becomethewaifu I think you're mixing up glibc with gcc.
@dalias @whitequark @becomethewaifu yes, i do that a lot. but same question, does it imply you can't build systemd with musl libc? (it might be the case there is no good reason to do this.)
@mcc @whitequark @becomethewaifu Indeed you can't, without some patching out of lots of gratuitous glibcisms. Some of the systemd devs are helpful and cooperative with the folks who've done that work trying to get it upstream. 
Others block & try to reverse it. 
@dalias @whitequark @becomethewaifu you know, i really want to defend systemd from the various extreme attacks on it because i don't think the init.d system it replaced was particularly good and i think some of VFS-y things it does sound useful. but systemd makes this continually hard.
@mcc @dalias @whitequark @becomethewaifu As with X11 vs Wayland, the old system was terrible but that doesn't mean the replacement isn't also awful in its own way.
@azonenberg @mcc @dalias @whitequark @becomethewaifu It's not even that it's awful in itself, so much as systemd developers seem to assume that they're entitled to decide the future of Linux themselves.
For instance, there's that passive-aggressive 'Tainted: unmerged-bin' that 'systemctl status' produces on Debian systems.
@foolishowl @azonenberg @mcc @dalias @whitequark @becomethewaifu the future of Linux is systemd, Wayland, and gnome. Nothing outside these boundaries will be tolerated by the owners of Linux, red hat
@kyle_pegasus @foolishowl @azonenberg @mcc @whitequark @becomethewaifu Huh? Lots of us consider them completely irrelevant. They aren't the owners of anything and their decisions have little impact on us.
@dalias @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl Also, as I've already commented in this thread somewhere, as a GNOME user it's fairly obvious that KDE will be the only full-featured option in the future, in part due to KDE seriously supporting Wayland and GNOME not
@mcc @dalias @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl Wait, isn't GNOME more into Wayland than KDE? 
@tris @dalias @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl I can't speak to their mindset. I just know they're not very good at it and I am frequently finding important features that are present in GNOME X11, absent in GNOME Wayland, and present in KDE Wayland.
@mcc @dalias @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl Huh, interesting, I find the opposite true, features like gestures are simply not present in GNOME X11
@tris @dalias @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl I come not to praise GNOME but to bury them
@mcc @tris @dalias @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl I use xfce because it's GTK based but it will also likely continue to support X11 forever
@bob @mcc @tris @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl Same. I don't want a "desktop environment". I don't want 75% of my resources spent on trying to make everything look the same like it's some corporate branding campaign. I just want to use the individual applications I need without being bothered by that shit. And XFCE delivers.
@dalias @bob @mcc @tris @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl yep. I left GNOME as soon as 3.x came out and it stopped letting me easily do the classic "win2k style taskbar and start menu at the bottom of the screen" UI.
@azonenberg FTR there is a plugin I use that gives you that back… it breaks at every gnome update and seems to be basically impossible to use on ubuntu due to distro-specific bugs there
@mcc yeah, or i could just use xfce.
What i'm more mad about is the GTK people getting infected by this, since so many non-GNOME apps are being forced to use GTK3/4 and e.g. the file browser dialog no longer supports typeahead. There were patches to restore it, but the diffs gradually grew more and more painful and I don't think there are any seriously maintained forks at this point.
If you wanna add search as an option do so, but keep the existing (perfectly functional) behavior as a preference.
@azonenberg that is an option. i can't use xfce because the margins Look Wrong and as a mac user from 1992 this is intolerable to me.
i agree that the replacement of typeahead with search in gnome/gtk is fucking intolerable.
@mcc (and more generally, "search as primary UI interaction mechanism" becoming horribly prevalent instead of "let me organize my data and find it the way i want")
@azonenberg @mcc "Can you send it to me again? I don't have it in the Recents anymore"
@azonenberg @mcc aperiodic reminder that this phenomenon of search dominating everything was intentionally pushed by the megacorps, as part of a strategy to make computing (as controlled by them) accessible to more people, but accessed in a dumbed-down way that doesn't allow people to break out of the ecosystems
@azonenberg @dalias @bob @mcc @tris @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl oh man I loved gnome 3 from the second I first saw it. I was coming off windows 8, where it was entirely fucking unusable until you knew you could win+d, and the first time I hit the meta key and the hud display came up I was fucking thrilled. Bind a hotkey for the terminal, different desktops for different content groups with easy scrolling between... I loved it, and I still love it, and although I get the hate I will defend it.
@silasmariner @azonenberg i am using current gnome with the dash-to-panel extension. i love how everything looks and other than problems with fractional dpi, almost my only complaints are things GNOME made bad on purpose (for example, the "typing a word in the open dialog searches within subfolders" behavoir
@mcc @silasmariner yes "bad on purpose" is my main complaint. Bad design not bad implementation
@mcc @azonenberg there are certainly a couple of usecases I stopped using the UI for and started doing in the terminal, but once I had the aliases for that I never really missed any capabilities... But, like, there are so many ways you can use a computer, and not being able to trivially fix a behaviour that grates with you is certainly frustrating. I've had my share of that, but have been happy with my current setup for quite a few years now. I guess one can forget overcome frustrations.
@silasmariner @azonenberg @bob @mcc @tris @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl The hate isn't about having a UI you like, but about deciding everyone should have the same UI and that they get to decide what that is and change everything and make everyone relearn every few years the same way Apple, Google, and Microsoft do.
@dalias @azonenberg @bob @mcc @tris @kyle_pegasus @foolishowl I never really had to relearn? I'm not gonna look up release dates so I'm probably embarrassing myself with an inaccurate year here, but I'm fairly sure I started with Linux in around 2013 and had settled on arch with gnome by 2014? I don't really remember any huge changes in that time, except when they broke guake's hotkey and I had to change how it was configured. And maybe the shortcut to greek keyboard stopped working for a bit?
@dalias @silasmariner @azonenberg @bob @mcc @tris @foolishowl Also pushing those decisions into gtk, so that the experience of using apps built with it degrades for non-gnome users
@kyle_pegasus @dalias @azonenberg @bob @mcc @tris @foolishowl ah sorry I see now. It's about gtk as a toolkit. I apologise for misunderstanding. But, like, gtk is _extracted_ tooling, not _generic_ tooling. It's by nature gonna be a bit of a hodgepodge, because sometimes you just don't have the time or energy to build the generic solution... I am fighting something similar in another project right now, yet I do have sympathy with the implementors...